I agree. That idea of orthodoxy never made sense to me. Curses, magic, invocations, etc. are so variable. Never mind when you take into account the variables of translations. Aside from the fact you can make up your own magic.
There's also another factor to consider - believing only in the protocol of the ritual is just another dogma to lob on the pile labelled "shit that gets in the way of progress" and relegate one to a placebo-chugging tourist.
Might as well head down to your local catholic mass and chow down on some transubstantiated zombie flesh for all the good Abramelin will do ya 🤷
Supernatural Protection: Communion provides the supernatural protection we cannot do without. It both decreases the likelihood that we will sin and acts as spiritual armor against the temptation to sin. Communion fortifies us against our natural tendency to follow our passions, which are humanly impossible to resist. Without the effects provided by Communion, it is certain that we will become slaves to our sins, in particular, the passions of pride and lust. We need the supernatural effects of the Eucharist to have any chance of victory over our passions.
I think that's a very neat demonstration from a very good example. I look forward to hearing more of your thoughts on it, as you intimated were coming! I particularly like the (inescapable) conclusion that "yeah but that's CHAOS MAGICK!" I've studied several different currents and traditions, including Ceremonial Magic (which I got a lot out of, especially in terms of discipline, but ultimately decided wasn't for me ... "is this a Magic for NERDS ...???"). I also did a significant dive into Chaos Magick, and while I don't use it as my main paradigm now, I would say that it is still my "Operating System" : more than any other conception of Magic, the Chaos approach seems to me to do a very good job of accounting for how it works: how ALL OF IT works. It's an incomplete account, of course, but if taken seriously (and playfully) enough, it provides a model of how different magic systems act on the Consciousness and on the World (and how inter-related those things are). Good stuff! A very useful discusion, glad to be part of it.
One of the reasons I stopped reading Charles Stross' "The Laundry Files", he became more and more strident with "it's just math, bro" throughout the series.
As if.
Hardly anybody wants to accept it's way more Peter Pan than Dark City. "Become like little children"... Who said that. again?
That sentiment “become like children” is famously attributed to Jesus in the west. But there are many examples of teachers across numerous traditions using similar metaphors of childhood and awe of experience.
A famous Indian Buddhist saint also said “become in awe of the illusory experiences, like a child looking upon and elephant”
deliciously ironic. Feeling grateful that in my tradition guardian angel work is a short (tho intense) trance journey. 18 months. feels like gate keeping lol
Therefore, my dear friends, flee from the worship of idols. I speak as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a sharing in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a sharing in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. Consider the people of Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices partners in the altar? What do I imply then? That food sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be partners with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. Or are we provoking the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he?
We (Americans) are married to this reductive, Newtonian model. It’s part of the reason Christians are comfortable in the MAGA camp. It isn’t a faith system, per se; they read Bible aphorisms and see strict formulas that generate consistent, repeatable results (“raise up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it.” “If any will not work, neither should he eat.” “The blessing of the lord maketh rich and he addeth no sorrow to it.” Et cetera.)
It's been my experience that people can be magically successful with pretty much anything as long as they include a few basic ingredients, which are the foundational concepts of Chaos Magic. I don't personally think belief is even particularly important. Like Crowley said, 'if you do the right things, certain results will follow.'
I guess the debate starts when people have differing ideas about what the right things actually are. Lol
I agree. That idea of orthodoxy never made sense to me. Curses, magic, invocations, etc. are so variable. Never mind when you take into account the variables of translations. Aside from the fact you can make up your own magic.
Nailed it! 👍🏻
There's also another factor to consider - believing only in the protocol of the ritual is just another dogma to lob on the pile labelled "shit that gets in the way of progress" and relegate one to a placebo-chugging tourist.
Might as well head down to your local catholic mass and chow down on some transubstantiated zombie flesh for all the good Abramelin will do ya 🤷
“Placebo-Chugging Tourist” very nice. I made a note .
Supernatural Protection: Communion provides the supernatural protection we cannot do without. It both decreases the likelihood that we will sin and acts as spiritual armor against the temptation to sin. Communion fortifies us against our natural tendency to follow our passions, which are humanly impossible to resist. Without the effects provided by Communion, it is certain that we will become slaves to our sins, in particular, the passions of pride and lust. We need the supernatural effects of the Eucharist to have any chance of victory over our passions.
I think that's a very neat demonstration from a very good example. I look forward to hearing more of your thoughts on it, as you intimated were coming! I particularly like the (inescapable) conclusion that "yeah but that's CHAOS MAGICK!" I've studied several different currents and traditions, including Ceremonial Magic (which I got a lot out of, especially in terms of discipline, but ultimately decided wasn't for me ... "is this a Magic for NERDS ...???"). I also did a significant dive into Chaos Magick, and while I don't use it as my main paradigm now, I would say that it is still my "Operating System" : more than any other conception of Magic, the Chaos approach seems to me to do a very good job of accounting for how it works: how ALL OF IT works. It's an incomplete account, of course, but if taken seriously (and playfully) enough, it provides a model of how different magic systems act on the Consciousness and on the World (and how inter-related those things are). Good stuff! A very useful discusion, glad to be part of it.
One of the reasons I stopped reading Charles Stross' "The Laundry Files", he became more and more strident with "it's just math, bro" throughout the series.
As if.
Hardly anybody wants to accept it's way more Peter Pan than Dark City. "Become like little children"... Who said that. again?
That sentiment “become like children” is famously attributed to Jesus in the west. But there are many examples of teachers across numerous traditions using similar metaphors of childhood and awe of experience.
A famous Indian Buddhist saint also said “become in awe of the illusory experiences, like a child looking upon and elephant”
I'm not surprised.
Relatedly, the Codex Oera Linda refers to a "Yesus" as AKA "Buda".
One more to add to the list...
deliciously ironic. Feeling grateful that in my tradition guardian angel work is a short (tho intense) trance journey. 18 months. feels like gate keeping lol
Therefore, my dear friends, flee from the worship of idols. I speak as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a sharing in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a sharing in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. Consider the people of Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices partners in the altar? What do I imply then? That food sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be partners with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. Or are we provoking the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he?
Solomon invoked demons.
We (Americans) are married to this reductive, Newtonian model. It’s part of the reason Christians are comfortable in the MAGA camp. It isn’t a faith system, per se; they read Bible aphorisms and see strict formulas that generate consistent, repeatable results (“raise up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it.” “If any will not work, neither should he eat.” “The blessing of the lord maketh rich and he addeth no sorrow to it.” Et cetera.)
23
How are the faux pagans doing today?
It's been my experience that people can be magically successful with pretty much anything as long as they include a few basic ingredients, which are the foundational concepts of Chaos Magic. I don't personally think belief is even particularly important. Like Crowley said, 'if you do the right things, certain results will follow.'
I guess the debate starts when people have differing ideas about what the right things actually are. Lol